When on antibiotics for the first time in 20 years maybe 2 years ago (wisdom teeth extraction), I also researched a bit about that stuff. I was taking a wild mix of bacteria in high dose, timed centered in between the antibio bomb hits, kinda like repairing a tank factory in Command & Conquer while it is being attacked (but in a manner that it wouldn't be instantly deactivated by the pills).
But from what I found, taking healthy gut biome samples _before_ the antibiotics treatment starts, and after it, planting it back, yields far superior results, more quickly, to get back to as it was before, as the biome seems to be highly indiviaual with regards to what kinds of bacteria, and the ratios, are good for someone. E.g. some people will more likely develop MS if one bacterium is present alot, while it's not doing anything bad in others. (so I didn't buy the supplement that had that in it, just in case, lol)
Don't have the references at hand. But it's a bummer that that sort of stuff is not only not offered regularly for this, it's not even on the radar of any doctor here, it's not an established procedure.
Thanks for sharing InfoHog. It's interesting you bring that situation up, because I remember reading one article that suggested providing probiotics at the same time that antibiotics were used, almost like to replete the microbiome as it is being targeted.
Funnily, I think my last use of antibiotics was when I got my wisdom teeth removed as well.
As to why this procedure isn't widespread, it seems like the lack of FDA approval may make some physicians wary. Cost and patient compliance may be an issue as well since you're essentially donating the feces and not just the bacteria, even though modern approaches avoid having to actively ingest it. So far it does appear that using it for C. Difficile and antibiotic depletion may be the best approach as more research is being done to see if FMT would work for other things, but I guess it's still in its early stages of research.
Also, when you say MS do you mean multiple sclerosis or another disease?
As for wisdom teeth, DarkHorse podcast had an interesting guest on ~ 2 years ago, who describes supposed real reasons why this is even needed these days - because of changed eating habits, not chewing enough chewy stuff in childhood. Also talking about the long-term damages of orientation correction with braces (something bad with roots, forgot how it's called)
2 of mine had caries, though. It is interesting anyway how long you can actually go with caries when eating even just a whole-foods diet that does contain some fruit, but very rarely, processed starches, and avoiding added sugar like the plague (e.g. I may eat chocolate as one of the few processed foods, but with 99..100% cocoa - some companies reall ymanage to make something tasty that's not dust or tastes like tobacco, lol). Because, one of those had caries for ~ 15 years before the extraction, and so far, I've never had toothache in my life.
I remember watching that. It made me realize I probably am eating too many soft foods, which made me supplement with kettle chips! (Kidding, sort of...)
We have our own oral microbiome that may be disturbed by high sugar foods hence the bacteria growth and cavities, so it's not really a surprise that this is a possibility.
(now some may wonder why I let it like that for that long, hahah... it's a long and personal story with a fraudulent dentist that made me not visit any for a long time as long as it didn't look like I had problems - and it basically was "calculated" that, with a rel. low sugar diet, this _should_ take long)
The thing is, the surgeon for my wisdom teeth did prescribe me (as optional) a probiotic against "antibiotic related diarrhea" (not "for healthy gut biome"), but that was BREWER'S YEAST, lol. I guess the simple logic behind that is something I alluded to earlier: It's fungi, so tehy may not be affected by the antiiotic treatment. But I don't want my own literal Brewery Incorporated, even if that happens rarely (does it happen rarely because this prescription is still rather novel and, since declared "optional", won't be follwoed by many? who knows).
I question the wisdom of using that even as a placeholder in my guts.
Gut bacteria are pretty much associated with many issues, even cancer, Parkinson's, dementia, depression, etc. etc. the list can really go on. The issue is figuring out how strong the link is between the gut and "X" axis, but a lot of research is providing us with a window that our microbiome is critical to our overall health.
To yeast, what's interesting is that we have fungi and even viruses that reside inside of us. So we do have a mycobiome and a virome (I think?) which are probably critical to our health as well. Maybe that's why yeast was prescribed? although I don't know much about brewer's yeast in particular and so I can't weigh in on that. Probiotics would seem to be the approach rather than yeast, but again I'm not knowledgeable of this approach.
We have a pond which attracts a plethora of waterfowl and every dog we have had has seen their feces as a delicacy.
People in general need to be aware that our world & ourselves are teeming with bacteria. Be good to them & they will be good to you! That movie looks very interesting- might have to drop a few bucks to watch it!
"The FDA has not approved of any specific procedure." that is already an indication of what the method is worth.
One of the workers of the largest supplemental probiotic producers once told me that they are NOT allowed to produce probiotic suppositories. When I asked why on earth? The answer was: it would work too good.
Do we need to wonder why FDA is forbidding NAC, EDTA, etc, etc???
Also one of the most devoted FMT practitioners has that one rule for the super-donor: It has to be a person WHO WAS NEVER VACCINATED!!!
When on antibiotics for the first time in 20 years maybe 2 years ago (wisdom teeth extraction), I also researched a bit about that stuff. I was taking a wild mix of bacteria in high dose, timed centered in between the antibio bomb hits, kinda like repairing a tank factory in Command & Conquer while it is being attacked (but in a manner that it wouldn't be instantly deactivated by the pills).
But from what I found, taking healthy gut biome samples _before_ the antibiotics treatment starts, and after it, planting it back, yields far superior results, more quickly, to get back to as it was before, as the biome seems to be highly indiviaual with regards to what kinds of bacteria, and the ratios, are good for someone. E.g. some people will more likely develop MS if one bacterium is present alot, while it's not doing anything bad in others. (so I didn't buy the supplement that had that in it, just in case, lol)
Don't have the references at hand. But it's a bummer that that sort of stuff is not only not offered regularly for this, it's not even on the radar of any doctor here, it's not an established procedure.
Thanks for sharing InfoHog. It's interesting you bring that situation up, because I remember reading one article that suggested providing probiotics at the same time that antibiotics were used, almost like to replete the microbiome as it is being targeted.
Funnily, I think my last use of antibiotics was when I got my wisdom teeth removed as well.
As to why this procedure isn't widespread, it seems like the lack of FDA approval may make some physicians wary. Cost and patient compliance may be an issue as well since you're essentially donating the feces and not just the bacteria, even though modern approaches avoid having to actively ingest it. So far it does appear that using it for C. Difficile and antibiotic depletion may be the best approach as more research is being done to see if FMT would work for other things, but I guess it's still in its early stages of research.
Also, when you say MS do you mean multiple sclerosis or another disease?
As for wisdom teeth, DarkHorse podcast had an interesting guest on ~ 2 years ago, who describes supposed real reasons why this is even needed these days - because of changed eating habits, not chewing enough chewy stuff in childhood. Also talking about the long-term damages of orientation correction with braces (something bad with roots, forgot how it's called)
2 of mine had caries, though. It is interesting anyway how long you can actually go with caries when eating even just a whole-foods diet that does contain some fruit, but very rarely, processed starches, and avoiding added sugar like the plague (e.g. I may eat chocolate as one of the few processed foods, but with 99..100% cocoa - some companies reall ymanage to make something tasty that's not dust or tastes like tobacco, lol). Because, one of those had caries for ~ 15 years before the extraction, and so far, I've never had toothache in my life.
I remember watching that. It made me realize I probably am eating too many soft foods, which made me supplement with kettle chips! (Kidding, sort of...)
We have our own oral microbiome that may be disturbed by high sugar foods hence the bacteria growth and cavities, so it's not really a surprise that this is a possibility.
(now some may wonder why I let it like that for that long, hahah... it's a long and personal story with a fraudulent dentist that made me not visit any for a long time as long as it didn't look like I had problems - and it basically was "calculated" that, with a rel. low sugar diet, this _should_ take long)
Multiple Sclerosis. I think it was this that I found:
https://newatlas.com/science/multiple-sclerosis-gut-microbiome-genetics-bacteria/
-
And this I fdound just now when searching for the other link:
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2022/09/423676/dozens-gut-bacteria-associated-multiple-sclerosis
The thing is, the surgeon for my wisdom teeth did prescribe me (as optional) a probiotic against "antibiotic related diarrhea" (not "for healthy gut biome"), but that was BREWER'S YEAST, lol. I guess the simple logic behind that is something I alluded to earlier: It's fungi, so tehy may not be affected by the antiiotic treatment. But I don't want my own literal Brewery Incorporated, even if that happens rarely (does it happen rarely because this prescription is still rather novel and, since declared "optional", won't be follwoed by many? who knows).
I question the wisdom of using that even as a placeholder in my guts.
Gut bacteria are pretty much associated with many issues, even cancer, Parkinson's, dementia, depression, etc. etc. the list can really go on. The issue is figuring out how strong the link is between the gut and "X" axis, but a lot of research is providing us with a window that our microbiome is critical to our overall health.
To yeast, what's interesting is that we have fungi and even viruses that reside inside of us. So we do have a mycobiome and a virome (I think?) which are probably critical to our health as well. Maybe that's why yeast was prescribed? although I don't know much about brewer's yeast in particular and so I can't weigh in on that. Probiotics would seem to be the approach rather than yeast, but again I'm not knowledgeable of this approach.
While everyone thought a man discovered penicillin, it was a woman behind it..
“In 1941 , lab assistant Mary Hunt offered up a couple of over ripe melons covered in a robust golden mould and the lab went ballistic.
The mould turned out to be Penicillium chrysogeum, which yielded 200 times the amount of penicillin that Flemming described.”
We have a pond which attracts a plethora of waterfowl and every dog we have had has seen their feces as a delicacy.
People in general need to be aware that our world & ourselves are teeming with bacteria. Be good to them & they will be good to you! That movie looks very interesting- might have to drop a few bucks to watch it!
"The FDA has not approved of any specific procedure." that is already an indication of what the method is worth.
One of the workers of the largest supplemental probiotic producers once told me that they are NOT allowed to produce probiotic suppositories. When I asked why on earth? The answer was: it would work too good.
Do we need to wonder why FDA is forbidding NAC, EDTA, etc, etc???
Also one of the most devoted FMT practitioners has that one rule for the super-donor: It has to be a person WHO WAS NEVER VACCINATED!!!