"We’re also comprised of a diverse array of genes responsible for creating individual, distinct immunity profiles that make it difficult for viruses to find a niche within our species unlike commercial chickens which are likely to be genetically similar and thus more susceptible to immune escape."
Well that's the critical point, isn't it? Not just leaky vaccines, but leaky vaccines during the middle of a pandemic.
All it takes now is vaccine-escape - which is already well-established with Omicorn etc - and now there is nothing stopping a highly virulent variant from circulating.
So far we've been lucky that Omicron, BA4 and BA5 have been mild, because the vaccinated don't have any real defense against them. If we happen to get a fatal variant, while 70% or so of the population only have antibodies for the long-extinct Wuhan strain, it would indeed find a massive reservoir of people with the exact same identical weakness.
El Gato Mato wrote a good post on this. This gets a bit into OAS, which Modern Discontent has refuted, but having huge portions of the population with immune systems targeted against a very specific antigen in the face of a virus highly prone to mutation is abnormal, potentially leading to a sort of homogenized immunity. But maybe it's an unjustified fear; even the vaccinated had varying levels of preexisting immunity, so the exact same injection won't lead to the exact same immune response in each individual. I still think it's past time we move away from the current injections, efficacy has gone down the tube against current variants, and certain people have already made their profits.
The main issue I have with OAS is that many of its proponents haven't elucidated OAS to a satisfactory degree. Instead, OAS just seems to be something that gets thrown at the wall and used to see if some hypothesis sticks.
It makes no sense why OAS is used to argue that the lack of N protein antibodies, because that's not what OAS was intended to hypothesize. It also means that essentially any coinfection we have- and keep in mind that we come into contact with tons of different pathogens at any given time- would not be dealt with because our immune system is tied up targeting this one antigen and not the other antigens that these different bacteria, fungi, and viruses have.
I think Brian Mowrey of Unglossed has written extensively in refuting OAS, and I tend to agree with him because his line of thinking is more fleshed out. Immunology is far more complex than people let on, and just a superficial examination of the immune system doesn't explain the overall complex system that is occurring.
That's not to say that we will one day find out that maybe some type of OAS is happening, but as of now I think we are attaching too much weight to a hypothesis and are clinging onto the idea that this just has to be the right hypothesis to argue what's happening here.
Well if it were the case we'd expect to see some kind of signal by now, such as infections going up instead of down after the injections, or more injected people getting sick or sicker than the uninjected...
That argument presupposes that we believe that these tests are actually accurate in testing for infection. I think it's rather strange that we once criticized these tests for being wholly inaccurate, but that many people now are relying on infection rates as a measure for these vaccines' effectiveness. Not to say that you are doing that, but we can't choose evidence when it fits our argument.
There's a lot of concerning signals with the adverse reactions, but as to vaccinated individuals suffering more severe COVID than unvaccinated requires stratifying the data and comparing groups. I think there's a big issue that we don't actually know how many people who have gotten vaccinated and seriously ill would have fared better before vaccination, mostly because the US is generally unhealthy to begin with. It doesn't really matter if a vaccine is effective if you are also obese, suffer heart disease, and are not eating a proper diet and exercising.
Omicron has been such a weird variant because its sudden emergence and behavior is one that doesn't follow what one would assume to happen during a typical evolutionary process.
As such, most people- both vaccinated and naturally immunized- actually did not have protection against Omicron since it had so many mutations within the spike protein to escape all sorts of prior adaptive immunity.
I'm also hesitant to argue anything about antibodies or OAS or increasing virulence because I think we're seeing an emergence of noise that is obfuscating some of the signals. As much as I refute these vaccines, I don't find any strong evidence to suggest that the vaccinated are wholly susceptible to more virulent infections.
Yes, I am not sure how much of this research is that applicable to SARS-CoV-2 but I am also relatively sure that nobody is trying to "weaponize" Marek's disease virus with biowarfare tech either.
No certainly not, unless the chickens decide to revolt against us and weaponize Marek. For whatever lab or gain-of-function study that SARS-COV2 may have emerged from, we have to examine its current behaviors and see if it delineates too far from what we would expect from other viruses. I think this information is actually a lot more nuanced and not so easy to figure out. I think so far it's not actually behaving too egregiously different, but we'll need to see more research to figure this out.
Well the whole antibody talk is strange since it doesn't explain the behaviors of B and T cells. On one hand we may stop producing antibodies because we stop coming into contact with a pathogen and thus are just wasting necessary resources, or we aren't actually capturing the behavior of B cells to produce antibodies in response to memory to an antigen.
There is a relationship between severity of illness and antibody production, and a big assumption with Omicron is that it's relatively mild nature in most people is likely the reason why a high level of antibodies isn't being produced. Again, these are assumptions and the information is really conflicting or full of noise, like your aunt and uncle who had minor illness and high antibody titers.
Also, respiratory infections apparently don't produce long-term immunity, so to the degree that this feature is unique to these vaccines or SARS-COV2 is one that is heavily up for debate.
If we were to do studies we really need to see the type of antibodies that people are producing, not just how much. It's a really difficult thing to do, but being able to understand someone's antibody profile when vaccinated or naturally infected should provide some better context.
This is interesting. I'll try to find the study itself but it really just alludes to the fact that a well body is an antifragile body. I think many of us don't quite understand what it means to be well anymore, or many of the factors needed to be well.
I remember when Joe Rogan used to be super paranoid about COVID and kept talking about his healthy friend who got it and how he did really bad. Can't remember his name, but apparently when he got onto Rogan's podcast he was talking about how he was on a long road trip with his family, lacked a ton of sleep and was not eating well before he came down with COVID. I think that really put it into perspective for Joe Rogan.
"We’re also comprised of a diverse array of genes responsible for creating individual, distinct immunity profiles that make it difficult for viruses to find a niche within our species unlike commercial chickens which are likely to be genetically similar and thus more susceptible to immune escape."
Well that's the critical point, isn't it? Not just leaky vaccines, but leaky vaccines during the middle of a pandemic.
All it takes now is vaccine-escape - which is already well-established with Omicorn etc - and now there is nothing stopping a highly virulent variant from circulating.
So far we've been lucky that Omicron, BA4 and BA5 have been mild, because the vaccinated don't have any real defense against them. If we happen to get a fatal variant, while 70% or so of the population only have antibodies for the long-extinct Wuhan strain, it would indeed find a massive reservoir of people with the exact same identical weakness.
El Gato Mato wrote a good post on this. This gets a bit into OAS, which Modern Discontent has refuted, but having huge portions of the population with immune systems targeted against a very specific antigen in the face of a virus highly prone to mutation is abnormal, potentially leading to a sort of homogenized immunity. But maybe it's an unjustified fear; even the vaccinated had varying levels of preexisting immunity, so the exact same injection won't lead to the exact same immune response in each individual. I still think it's past time we move away from the current injections, efficacy has gone down the tube against current variants, and certain people have already made their profits.
https://boriquagato.substack.com/p/homogenizing-herd-level-antigenic
The main issue I have with OAS is that many of its proponents haven't elucidated OAS to a satisfactory degree. Instead, OAS just seems to be something that gets thrown at the wall and used to see if some hypothesis sticks.
It makes no sense why OAS is used to argue that the lack of N protein antibodies, because that's not what OAS was intended to hypothesize. It also means that essentially any coinfection we have- and keep in mind that we come into contact with tons of different pathogens at any given time- would not be dealt with because our immune system is tied up targeting this one antigen and not the other antigens that these different bacteria, fungi, and viruses have.
I think Brian Mowrey of Unglossed has written extensively in refuting OAS, and I tend to agree with him because his line of thinking is more fleshed out. Immunology is far more complex than people let on, and just a superficial examination of the immune system doesn't explain the overall complex system that is occurring.
That's not to say that we will one day find out that maybe some type of OAS is happening, but as of now I think we are attaching too much weight to a hypothesis and are clinging onto the idea that this just has to be the right hypothesis to argue what's happening here.
Well if it were the case we'd expect to see some kind of signal by now, such as infections going up instead of down after the injections, or more injected people getting sick or sicker than the uninjected...
And we ARE seeing those signals
That argument presupposes that we believe that these tests are actually accurate in testing for infection. I think it's rather strange that we once criticized these tests for being wholly inaccurate, but that many people now are relying on infection rates as a measure for these vaccines' effectiveness. Not to say that you are doing that, but we can't choose evidence when it fits our argument.
There's a lot of concerning signals with the adverse reactions, but as to vaccinated individuals suffering more severe COVID than unvaccinated requires stratifying the data and comparing groups. I think there's a big issue that we don't actually know how many people who have gotten vaccinated and seriously ill would have fared better before vaccination, mostly because the US is generally unhealthy to begin with. It doesn't really matter if a vaccine is effective if you are also obese, suffer heart disease, and are not eating a proper diet and exercising.
Omicron has been such a weird variant because its sudden emergence and behavior is one that doesn't follow what one would assume to happen during a typical evolutionary process.
As such, most people- both vaccinated and naturally immunized- actually did not have protection against Omicron since it had so many mutations within the spike protein to escape all sorts of prior adaptive immunity.
I'm also hesitant to argue anything about antibodies or OAS or increasing virulence because I think we're seeing an emergence of noise that is obfuscating some of the signals. As much as I refute these vaccines, I don't find any strong evidence to suggest that the vaccinated are wholly susceptible to more virulent infections.
Yes, I am not sure how much of this research is that applicable to SARS-CoV-2 but I am also relatively sure that nobody is trying to "weaponize" Marek's disease virus with biowarfare tech either.
Very interesting discussion!
No certainly not, unless the chickens decide to revolt against us and weaponize Marek. For whatever lab or gain-of-function study that SARS-COV2 may have emerged from, we have to examine its current behaviors and see if it delineates too far from what we would expect from other viruses. I think this information is actually a lot more nuanced and not so easy to figure out. I think so far it's not actually behaving too egregiously different, but we'll need to see more research to figure this out.
Well the whole antibody talk is strange since it doesn't explain the behaviors of B and T cells. On one hand we may stop producing antibodies because we stop coming into contact with a pathogen and thus are just wasting necessary resources, or we aren't actually capturing the behavior of B cells to produce antibodies in response to memory to an antigen.
There is a relationship between severity of illness and antibody production, and a big assumption with Omicron is that it's relatively mild nature in most people is likely the reason why a high level of antibodies isn't being produced. Again, these are assumptions and the information is really conflicting or full of noise, like your aunt and uncle who had minor illness and high antibody titers.
Also, respiratory infections apparently don't produce long-term immunity, so to the degree that this feature is unique to these vaccines or SARS-COV2 is one that is heavily up for debate.
If we were to do studies we really need to see the type of antibodies that people are producing, not just how much. It's a really difficult thing to do, but being able to understand someone's antibody profile when vaccinated or naturally infected should provide some better context.
This is interesting. I'll try to find the study itself but it really just alludes to the fact that a well body is an antifragile body. I think many of us don't quite understand what it means to be well anymore, or many of the factors needed to be well.
I remember when Joe Rogan used to be super paranoid about COVID and kept talking about his healthy friend who got it and how he did really bad. Can't remember his name, but apparently when he got onto Rogan's podcast he was talking about how he was on a long road trip with his family, lacked a ton of sleep and was not eating well before he came down with COVID. I think that really put it into perspective for Joe Rogan.