"Claims that Khelif may be intersex didn't seem relevant?" Why on Earth not? "Disorders of sexual development are conditions where a person’s reproductive organs and genitals are “mismatched” at birth. Examples include male chromosomes (XY) and genitalia that appears female (vulva)," such as androgen insensitivity syndrome - he (and I'm sorry, but I'm going with 'my lyin' eyes' on which sex he is) could have undescended testicles.
My original writing had a whole section regarding claims of Khelif being intersex, and I dove a bit into different intersex variations and wanted to do a whole nuanced perspective, but an examination of this claim would require that we have verifiable evidence regarding Khelif's sex chromosome makeup as well as information regarding Khelif's testosterone levels. Because these two claims were my main points of contention it didn't seem appropriate to throw in discussions on intersex which may just make the situation even more confusing for readers.
On another substack a commenter made the unsubstantiated assertion that Khelif has androgen insensitivity syndrome. The comment is suspect because it is not substantiated, but even if true so what? AIS does not flip a person from XY to XX. It just means a dude with a micropenis or some other abnormality. While I feel sorry for the guy, his birth defect does not give him license to beat on women.
Maybe I'm missing the plot ... isn't Modern Discontent saying there's no evidence that Khelif is XY? That would mean she's a she, and with no evidence of being intersex, she is a woman (my understanding is she was born with a vagina and a uterus.)
The Wikipedia page (assuming what it presents is valid, which I think is reasonable) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome is most instructive since it shows photographs of the bodies of what appear to be young women. These are of XY chromosome males who have a single genetic defect. Their Y chromosome carries, as is normal, the SRY gene which lead to a male-typical process of in-utero" masculinization: i.e., the Wolffian duct system is promoted and the Müllerian duct system is suppressed (the reverse happens with typically developing females)." So they develop testes rather than ovaries.
Yet due to both their genes (on the X chromosome, one from their mother and one from their father) for the androgen receptor (which senses the presence of testosterone and dihydro-testosterone) being faulty, their cells do not respond to the these two compounds, which exist at levels which are normal for males. Although the genetically determined structure of testes, and lack of ovaries, uterus etc., is perfectly normal for a male, all other aspects of the body's development are controlled hormonally. These develop in an approximately female pattern, leaving the testes inside their body, so they have almost all the externally visible attributes of being female, from birth onwards, including, usually, neuronal development in the normal male pattern, which is to self-identify as male and be sexually attracted to women.
"Most individuals with CAIS are raised as females. They are born with an external phenotype of a typical female and are thought to be usually heterosexual with a female gender identity; however, some research has suggested that individuals with CAIS are more likely to have more variable gender outcomes and a non-primarily heterosexual sexual orientation than relatively similar control groups of those with MRKH syndrome and PCOS, contradicting this belief. At least two case studies have reported male gender identity in individuals with CAIS."
As best I understand it, a person with CAIS is for most intents and purposes female. Their testosterone level is much higher than normal for females, but this has no effect on them. So they would have no advantage in sports.
However, with partial androgen receptor insensitivity, I guess that a person could be born with distinctly female genitalia and may be raised as female and feel female to a complete or large degree, but have a high testosterone level which is detected by their cells' androgen receptors to some degree at least and so provides their body and brain with some degree of the strength and abilities typical of males. This would give them a significant and unnatural (since these insensitivities are rare and pathological) advantage over normal females in sports.
Except Khelif looks like a male athlete, yet the testosterone didn’t have an effect? I call BS. If there was such studies they come from a politicised lab or faulty/corrupt procedure to obtain those results, and more comprehensive analysis needs be done, including eye tests for the lab technicians…
Intersex is an unfortunate term to use in this discussion. A person is either a male chromosomally (meaning at least one Y chromosome) or female chromosomally.
A person can also be phenotypically female or female, usually congruent with their chromosomes. Rarely there is a divergence based on an inborn error of metabolism that may express itself in different ways and at different ages and to different degrees in different individuals.
Then there are individuals who are born with ambiguous genitalia due again to different genetic anomalies ( mutations). But geneticly they are either male or female. How they are raised (or are advised to be raised depends on the particular abnormality, as the ambiguity of genitalia may shift from looking more one way to the other way.
Again, I don’t think intersex is helpful terminology and only feeds into the trans delusion, which is a politicized mental health issue, & is why this has gotten so hot and confusing.
I think the boxing Association had it right, regardless of the alleged issues with their finances as they made their decision out of the woke limelight and their decision was appealed & stood, & the Algerian gave up the appeal (implying that the decision would go the same way).
The Boxing Association pointed out issues with the IOCs testing or determining procedures and the IOC hit back with allegations of financial in their operations.
The IOC has changed its criteria in the last several years, why? Not because male & female physiology has changed but the politics certainly has, and whether that has anything to do with that is anyone’s guess.
None of this is definitive, specific or detailed, as it deals with protected personal health information, but my inference is that the two individuals that failed the boxing Association’s test likely tested presumptive male or definitively male, and that this was news to the athletes (presumably because they were outwardly female—I can’t imagine the shock that must have been, hence the appeals.
Whether or not a testosterone level was subsequently done by either organization is beside the point. There is no overlap between males and females, but there are drugs that can affect testosterone levels (lower) that are in common use and freely available.
We will never know, but IMHO, the IOC should clean up its act for the sake of women (true women) competitors.
"Claims that Khelif may be intersex didn't seem relevant?" Why on Earth not? "Disorders of sexual development are conditions where a person’s reproductive organs and genitals are “mismatched” at birth. Examples include male chromosomes (XY) and genitalia that appears female (vulva)," such as androgen insensitivity syndrome - he (and I'm sorry, but I'm going with 'my lyin' eyes' on which sex he is) could have undescended testicles.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/disorders-of-sexual-development
My original writing had a whole section regarding claims of Khelif being intersex, and I dove a bit into different intersex variations and wanted to do a whole nuanced perspective, but an examination of this claim would require that we have verifiable evidence regarding Khelif's sex chromosome makeup as well as information regarding Khelif's testosterone levels. Because these two claims were my main points of contention it didn't seem appropriate to throw in discussions on intersex which may just make the situation even more confusing for readers.
On another substack a commenter made the unsubstantiated assertion that Khelif has androgen insensitivity syndrome. The comment is suspect because it is not substantiated, but even if true so what? AIS does not flip a person from XY to XX. It just means a dude with a micropenis or some other abnormality. While I feel sorry for the guy, his birth defect does not give him license to beat on women.
Nina, exactly.
Maybe I'm missing the plot ... isn't Modern Discontent saying there's no evidence that Khelif is XY? That would mean she's a she, and with no evidence of being intersex, she is a woman (my understanding is she was born with a vagina and a uterus.)
Thanks for this link, which leads to https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/22199-androgen-insensitivity-syndrome. Perhaps this person has partial androgen insensitivity syndrome and so is a male, with undescended testes and genitalia resembling the female pattern.
The Wikipedia page (assuming what it presents is valid, which I think is reasonable) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome is most instructive since it shows photographs of the bodies of what appear to be young women. These are of XY chromosome males who have a single genetic defect. Their Y chromosome carries, as is normal, the SRY gene which lead to a male-typical process of in-utero" masculinization: i.e., the Wolffian duct system is promoted and the Müllerian duct system is suppressed (the reverse happens with typically developing females)." So they develop testes rather than ovaries.
Yet due to both their genes (on the X chromosome, one from their mother and one from their father) for the androgen receptor (which senses the presence of testosterone and dihydro-testosterone) being faulty, their cells do not respond to the these two compounds, which exist at levels which are normal for males. Although the genetically determined structure of testes, and lack of ovaries, uterus etc., is perfectly normal for a male, all other aspects of the body's development are controlled hormonally. These develop in an approximately female pattern, leaving the testes inside their body, so they have almost all the externally visible attributes of being female, from birth onwards, including, usually, neuronal development in the normal male pattern, which is to self-identify as male and be sexually attracted to women.
"Most individuals with CAIS are raised as females. They are born with an external phenotype of a typical female and are thought to be usually heterosexual with a female gender identity; however, some research has suggested that individuals with CAIS are more likely to have more variable gender outcomes and a non-primarily heterosexual sexual orientation than relatively similar control groups of those with MRKH syndrome and PCOS, contradicting this belief. At least two case studies have reported male gender identity in individuals with CAIS."
As best I understand it, a person with CAIS is for most intents and purposes female. Their testosterone level is much higher than normal for females, but this has no effect on them. So they would have no advantage in sports.
However, with partial androgen receptor insensitivity, I guess that a person could be born with distinctly female genitalia and may be raised as female and feel female to a complete or large degree, but have a high testosterone level which is detected by their cells' androgen receptors to some degree at least and so provides their body and brain with some degree of the strength and abilities typical of males. This would give them a significant and unnatural (since these insensitivities are rare and pathological) advantage over normal females in sports.
Except Khelif looks like a male athlete, yet the testosterone didn’t have an effect? I call BS. If there was such studies they come from a politicised lab or faulty/corrupt procedure to obtain those results, and more comprehensive analysis needs be done, including eye tests for the lab technicians…
I suggested that perhaps this athlete has partial androgen insensitivity syndrome, not complete.
Life is never what I think it is.
Intersex is an unfortunate term to use in this discussion. A person is either a male chromosomally (meaning at least one Y chromosome) or female chromosomally.
A person can also be phenotypically female or female, usually congruent with their chromosomes. Rarely there is a divergence based on an inborn error of metabolism that may express itself in different ways and at different ages and to different degrees in different individuals.
Then there are individuals who are born with ambiguous genitalia due again to different genetic anomalies ( mutations). But geneticly they are either male or female. How they are raised (or are advised to be raised depends on the particular abnormality, as the ambiguity of genitalia may shift from looking more one way to the other way.
Again, I don’t think intersex is helpful terminology and only feeds into the trans delusion, which is a politicized mental health issue, & is why this has gotten so hot and confusing.
I think the boxing Association had it right, regardless of the alleged issues with their finances as they made their decision out of the woke limelight and their decision was appealed & stood, & the Algerian gave up the appeal (implying that the decision would go the same way).
The Boxing Association pointed out issues with the IOCs testing or determining procedures and the IOC hit back with allegations of financial in their operations.
The IOC has changed its criteria in the last several years, why? Not because male & female physiology has changed but the politics certainly has, and whether that has anything to do with that is anyone’s guess.
None of this is definitive, specific or detailed, as it deals with protected personal health information, but my inference is that the two individuals that failed the boxing Association’s test likely tested presumptive male or definitively male, and that this was news to the athletes (presumably because they were outwardly female—I can’t imagine the shock that must have been, hence the appeals.
Whether or not a testosterone level was subsequently done by either organization is beside the point. There is no overlap between males and females, but there are drugs that can affect testosterone levels (lower) that are in common use and freely available.
We will never know, but IMHO, the IOC should clean up its act for the sake of women (true women) competitors.
Well said
Thanks for the support.
You appear to be under the misapprehension that in 2024 facts matter.