"Because of these circumstances, one should consider the fact that reported symptoms of PASC may be related to vaccination and not infection.": How true, my thoughts exactly.
You've got to give them some credit, though. It's not all that easy to construct diagnostic criteria like these in order to hide what's actually happening.
As a life-long experiencer of some strange form of chronic fatigue, I could easily qualify for Long Covid, except that I've never had the virus and I've never had the shots, and this has been going on for the better part of seven decades. I suspect it to be mitochondrial, and I wouldn't be the least surprised to learn that Long Covid is too, but let's not be getting sidetracked with actual possible causes. Symptoms are what matters.
I actually don't think this was constructed with the intention of hiding vaccine adverse reactions, but may have just not taken into account this variable. So the data from this study may have a few issues with some confounding, but it's still moving towards trying to actually formulate a diagnostic criteria for Long COVID.
A thing to remember is that Long COVID may just be a part of a larger issue of post-viral issues. I think the literature has failed to capture the fact that viruses have likely been causing a lot of long-term issues post infection. I commented once on how one video on Long COVID with Dr. Bruce Patterson and Dr. Yoh was filled with people who commented that they happened to get sick once with some common virus and just never fully recovered. I think this is a more common occurrence that hasn't been fully examined.
I was in kind of a bad mood when I wrote that. People I know keep developing unusual cancers, and some have been dying. When I first started hearing about Long Covid, I thought "oh, like chronic fatigue". Not entirely like it, but with a family resemblance.
In my own life there is chronic fatigue, allergy-related (pollen) fatigue, and viral fatigue. Each has a somewhat different feel to it, and they all affect my gut in different ways. Allergy-related fatigue goes away when the allergens do. Viral fatigue goes away some time after the infection is over. Chronic fatigue hangs around, but for me it at least it isn't continuous. Long Covid sounds to me a lot like viral fatigue that morphs into chronic fatigue. That in turn sounds like the stories people tell of being OK until they came down with some virus (Epstein-Barr comes to mind) that then led into chronic fatigue. I was hearing those stories decades ago.
I haven't come down with Covid (despite plenty of exposure) or had the shots, so I don't know how any of that feels. I'm just listening to what people say about it, and noticing possible similarities.
No, I understand ClearMiddle. I see a lot of things happening in my personal life that raises questions, and it's hard to sort of look at things from a different perspective. Any health event tends to raise an immediate, "what if...". On one hand, I see some things and get really concerned if they may be vaccine-related. On the other hand, I imagine how I would feel to have such an event be weaponize/disseminated online to have people speculate. It's one of the reasons why I have sort of moved away from reports of people "dying suddenly." Irrespective of whether it's vaccine-related, we are still talking about the loss of a life, and possibly someone very young. I personally wouldn't want people to use my family's death for their own motives, and I sort of view these reports in a different lens now to be quite honest. But with all that being said, the harsh reality of life is that life is full of unpredictability. We never know how things are going to play out, but we still continue to live regardless. I suppose all we can do, at least for those of us on the ground and not at the forefront of whatever this movement is, is to keep living and being there for our loved ones.
So regardless of whether it's related to the vaccine or not, it's unfortunate to deal with any loss or poor health. I hope the best for those you know who are suffering through all of that.
With respect to the chronic fatigue, it does appear that there could be a viral etiology to these occurrences. I'm curious if this occurs more often in woman due to autoimmunity as I commented on in my prior post (women appearing to have a stronger adaptive immune response and therefore more likely to be at risk of autoimmunity). Post-viral syndrome, or Long COVID, or anything of that like may be something that has been around for some time but has never been fully investigated, so in the absence of information Long COVID ends up appearing novel.
I think it was in A Midwestern Doctor's Substack that I brought up the subject of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and the acronym MEGO (My Eyes Glaze Over). The context, for me, sometime in the 1990s I think, was people with CFS and how they would react when their doctors informed them that it was "all in their heads".
I now understand this to be a form of medical gaslighting (something for which I never had a name until recently), and it might help explain the "something that has been around for some time but has never been fully investigated" that you suggested.
I just really wish these studies clearly delineate between vaccinated vs unvaccinated. For the symptoms, I and my mom got COVID towards the end of 2020 and I myself experienced the loss of smell for a month after recovery, but my mom didn't. However for all other symptoms it was mom's was more severe and took much longer to recover. Nonetheless both of us recovered and didn't have other issues since. Both of us remain unvaccinated.
But for some of my relatives who were vaccinated--all of whom got COVID btw--seemed to do worse, with one older senior who just got worse (constant falls) and after post-vaccinated COVID infection, had recurrent pneumonia. Another vaccinated relative ended up permanently disabled from a stroke (blood clot), also with pneumonia, after COVID infection.
When you mentioned: "I commented once on how one video on Long COVID with Dr. Bruce Patterson and Dr. Yoh was filled with people who commented that they happened to get sick once with some common virus and just never fully recovered."
.. it reminded me of that older senior relative I mentioned who aside from coordination issues and frequent falls, who gets pneumonia easily from not just the initial COVID infection after vaccination, but every little bug / cold/ flu the whole winter into early spring, whereas she never had such issues before.
Also, I do hope that those individuals recover. Irrespective of whether it's related to the vaccine or not, there's a lot going on that is difficult to deal with, and the fact that it doesn't seem like many people are getting help with respect to either Long COVID or vaccine adverse reactions is frustrating to hear.
For the most part, most studies looking at Long COVID used retrospective data and in time periods prior to the vaccine rollout, so most of these studies did not have to deal with this variable. It's only this one, which seems to at least attempt to construct a working diagnostic tool, did they rely on vaccinated individuals, and I think it's sort of to make an argument about vaccinated individuals being less likely to suffer from Long COVID, which is an argument I'm rather critical of.
The Patterson and Yoh video appears to be of people who were talking about their issues prior to COVID, and likely during the 80s or 90s. The biggest issue is that the presentation of these symptoms occurred predominately in women, so it seems like the medical establishment was quick to brush off these issues as being attributed to some form of mania/hysteria.
For those who are vaccinated and get infected, the issue is very complex because we're sort of operating in hindsight. That is to say, we won't know how those people would have done if they didn't receive the vaccine. It's sort of the opposite coin to those who got COVID and said that they would have done worse if not for the vaccine- there's no way of falsifying this argument and yet vaccine advocates keep pushing it.
Ok thanks for clearing that part about older studies prior to the rollout. I ask because while I had heard about Long Covid and believe them, as I myself had that peculiar lingering loss of smell for a month after clearing the virus, it just seemed like to me I kept hearing about much more anecdotal reports last year, with more malaise and overall multiple symptoms. Perhaps that's just coincidence with more people being open and joining support groups etc.
Are you referring to Long COVID? I'm sorry that you're suffering through that Donnie. So far, there doesn't appear to be clear treatment options. I suppose most doctors may be relying on alleviating symptoms. It may be worth considering what information you can gather online and see what resources are available for Long haulers. Since I'm not a medical professional I won't be able to offer any medical advice, so it may be best to seek out other sources and gather as much information as you can.
Hopefully your symptoms can be dealt with and you don't have to suffer through them worsening.
"Because of these circumstances, one should consider the fact that reported symptoms of PASC may be related to vaccination and not infection.": How true, my thoughts exactly.
You've got to give them some credit, though. It's not all that easy to construct diagnostic criteria like these in order to hide what's actually happening.
As a life-long experiencer of some strange form of chronic fatigue, I could easily qualify for Long Covid, except that I've never had the virus and I've never had the shots, and this has been going on for the better part of seven decades. I suspect it to be mitochondrial, and I wouldn't be the least surprised to learn that Long Covid is too, but let's not be getting sidetracked with actual possible causes. Symptoms are what matters.
I actually don't think this was constructed with the intention of hiding vaccine adverse reactions, but may have just not taken into account this variable. So the data from this study may have a few issues with some confounding, but it's still moving towards trying to actually formulate a diagnostic criteria for Long COVID.
A thing to remember is that Long COVID may just be a part of a larger issue of post-viral issues. I think the literature has failed to capture the fact that viruses have likely been causing a lot of long-term issues post infection. I commented once on how one video on Long COVID with Dr. Bruce Patterson and Dr. Yoh was filled with people who commented that they happened to get sick once with some common virus and just never fully recovered. I think this is a more common occurrence that hasn't been fully examined.
I was in kind of a bad mood when I wrote that. People I know keep developing unusual cancers, and some have been dying. When I first started hearing about Long Covid, I thought "oh, like chronic fatigue". Not entirely like it, but with a family resemblance.
In my own life there is chronic fatigue, allergy-related (pollen) fatigue, and viral fatigue. Each has a somewhat different feel to it, and they all affect my gut in different ways. Allergy-related fatigue goes away when the allergens do. Viral fatigue goes away some time after the infection is over. Chronic fatigue hangs around, but for me it at least it isn't continuous. Long Covid sounds to me a lot like viral fatigue that morphs into chronic fatigue. That in turn sounds like the stories people tell of being OK until they came down with some virus (Epstein-Barr comes to mind) that then led into chronic fatigue. I was hearing those stories decades ago.
I haven't come down with Covid (despite plenty of exposure) or had the shots, so I don't know how any of that feels. I'm just listening to what people say about it, and noticing possible similarities.
No, I understand ClearMiddle. I see a lot of things happening in my personal life that raises questions, and it's hard to sort of look at things from a different perspective. Any health event tends to raise an immediate, "what if...". On one hand, I see some things and get really concerned if they may be vaccine-related. On the other hand, I imagine how I would feel to have such an event be weaponize/disseminated online to have people speculate. It's one of the reasons why I have sort of moved away from reports of people "dying suddenly." Irrespective of whether it's vaccine-related, we are still talking about the loss of a life, and possibly someone very young. I personally wouldn't want people to use my family's death for their own motives, and I sort of view these reports in a different lens now to be quite honest. But with all that being said, the harsh reality of life is that life is full of unpredictability. We never know how things are going to play out, but we still continue to live regardless. I suppose all we can do, at least for those of us on the ground and not at the forefront of whatever this movement is, is to keep living and being there for our loved ones.
So regardless of whether it's related to the vaccine or not, it's unfortunate to deal with any loss or poor health. I hope the best for those you know who are suffering through all of that.
With respect to the chronic fatigue, it does appear that there could be a viral etiology to these occurrences. I'm curious if this occurs more often in woman due to autoimmunity as I commented on in my prior post (women appearing to have a stronger adaptive immune response and therefore more likely to be at risk of autoimmunity). Post-viral syndrome, or Long COVID, or anything of that like may be something that has been around for some time but has never been fully investigated, so in the absence of information Long COVID ends up appearing novel.
I think it was in A Midwestern Doctor's Substack that I brought up the subject of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and the acronym MEGO (My Eyes Glaze Over). The context, for me, sometime in the 1990s I think, was people with CFS and how they would react when their doctors informed them that it was "all in their heads".
I now understand this to be a form of medical gaslighting (something for which I never had a name until recently), and it might help explain the "something that has been around for some time but has never been fully investigated" that you suggested.
Someone in that Substack was able to hunt down one reference to MEGO, from 1973, so at least the acronym itself was not a product of my imagination: https://www.nytimes.com/1973/09/06/archives/mego-essay.html
I just really wish these studies clearly delineate between vaccinated vs unvaccinated. For the symptoms, I and my mom got COVID towards the end of 2020 and I myself experienced the loss of smell for a month after recovery, but my mom didn't. However for all other symptoms it was mom's was more severe and took much longer to recover. Nonetheless both of us recovered and didn't have other issues since. Both of us remain unvaccinated.
But for some of my relatives who were vaccinated--all of whom got COVID btw--seemed to do worse, with one older senior who just got worse (constant falls) and after post-vaccinated COVID infection, had recurrent pneumonia. Another vaccinated relative ended up permanently disabled from a stroke (blood clot), also with pneumonia, after COVID infection.
When you mentioned: "I commented once on how one video on Long COVID with Dr. Bruce Patterson and Dr. Yoh was filled with people who commented that they happened to get sick once with some common virus and just never fully recovered."
.. it reminded me of that older senior relative I mentioned who aside from coordination issues and frequent falls, who gets pneumonia easily from not just the initial COVID infection after vaccination, but every little bug / cold/ flu the whole winter into early spring, whereas she never had such issues before.
Also, I do hope that those individuals recover. Irrespective of whether it's related to the vaccine or not, there's a lot going on that is difficult to deal with, and the fact that it doesn't seem like many people are getting help with respect to either Long COVID or vaccine adverse reactions is frustrating to hear.
For the most part, most studies looking at Long COVID used retrospective data and in time periods prior to the vaccine rollout, so most of these studies did not have to deal with this variable. It's only this one, which seems to at least attempt to construct a working diagnostic tool, did they rely on vaccinated individuals, and I think it's sort of to make an argument about vaccinated individuals being less likely to suffer from Long COVID, which is an argument I'm rather critical of.
The Patterson and Yoh video appears to be of people who were talking about their issues prior to COVID, and likely during the 80s or 90s. The biggest issue is that the presentation of these symptoms occurred predominately in women, so it seems like the medical establishment was quick to brush off these issues as being attributed to some form of mania/hysteria.
For those who are vaccinated and get infected, the issue is very complex because we're sort of operating in hindsight. That is to say, we won't know how those people would have done if they didn't receive the vaccine. It's sort of the opposite coin to those who got COVID and said that they would have done worse if not for the vaccine- there's no way of falsifying this argument and yet vaccine advocates keep pushing it.
Ok thanks for clearing that part about older studies prior to the rollout. I ask because while I had heard about Long Covid and believe them, as I myself had that peculiar lingering loss of smell for a month after clearing the virus, it just seemed like to me I kept hearing about much more anecdotal reports last year, with more malaise and overall multiple symptoms. Perhaps that's just coincidence with more people being open and joining support groups etc.
All I can say is WOW...
Also, I have "it" and it gets worse everyday...
Is there a magic pill...?
Are you referring to Long COVID? I'm sorry that you're suffering through that Donnie. So far, there doesn't appear to be clear treatment options. I suppose most doctors may be relying on alleviating symptoms. It may be worth considering what information you can gather online and see what resources are available for Long haulers. Since I'm not a medical professional I won't be able to offer any medical advice, so it may be best to seek out other sources and gather as much information as you can.
Hopefully your symptoms can be dealt with and you don't have to suffer through them worsening.
VERDICINALS
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